Re: Sesonchosis
Sun Dec 25, 2016 19:21


Nesipaqashuty. Not sure what you mean. He is not beyond 100 in later Siamun. Nesipaqashuty (i) does not make it to Siamun. The year 5 mention (burial of Neskhons) of Nesipaqashuty (i) is anonymous and I assign this to Shoshenq I in 990. The mention of Nesipaqashuty (ii) in year 10 of Siamun (the dockets of transfer of the royal mummies) with all the hereditary titles in 927 is at the end of his career. His grandson 3PA Djedthutefankh A is married to the “king’s daughter” Tashepenbast. Their son Nesipaqashuty is the future vizier.

Nesipaqashuty (i); born ca. 1050; age 60 in year 5 of Shoshenq I at the burial of Neskhons
Bakenkhons (i), born ca. 1025
Nesipaqashuty (ii), born ca. 1000; age 73 in year 10 of Siamun
Amenmone, born ca. 980
3PA Djedthutefankh A, born ca. 960; Tashepenbast, born ca. 960
Vizier Nesipaqashuty, born ca. 935, died 903, age 32
Sitamun, born ca. 915

On the EKL. I would suggest reading C. F. Rey’s book, In the Country of the Blue Nile (1927), in its entirety. The only information about the list Rey reproduces in Appendix A is that it was given to him in 1922 by Ras Tafari Makonnen when he was still Regent and heir to the throne. So this is the official list of the Abyssinian government. There is no mention of Hatshepsowe. There are other "Ethiopian king lists," but these were drawn up by European outsiders.

I think you misunderstand the case for Iny. The argument Kitchen makes is that what Djedioh, grandson of Djedioh, scribbled on the roof of the Khonsu temple is a mere graffito and not an official royal inscription. He dated it year 5 and used Osorkon’s hypocoristic Iny. This is the pet form of the king’s name, similar to Ramesses II’s pet name Sessy. Djedioh put this scribble right next to one dated year 4 of Shoshenq which his grandfather Djedioh had left. This Shoshenq is most likely Shoshenq III and that leaves Osorkon III as the strongest candidate for the identity of a Theban king named Iny two generations later. The objection that kings did not use nicknames during the Libyan-Kushite period is invalid. The pet form Py is apparently how Piankhy was normally pronounced by Nubians. Yet the full form is what always appears in Piankhy’s inscriptions. His name is never written as just Py. I currently have Rudamon I succeeding Osorkon III/B at Thebes in 780, but if any new data turns up and Iny is proven to be a distinct king, I can easily downdate Rudamon I a few years and insert this new Iny in between. In any case, assuming Iny is an abbreviated form of Osorkon, he will still die with the name Osorkon. So there is no problem either way.

On Berlin 23673. The Memphite genealogy of priests has never made more sense to me as it does now. A small adjustment here. I move Amonemnisut from 1007-1003 up to 1052-1048 so that he precedes Psusennes I as in the standard interpretation. Amenemope succeeded his father Psusennes I immediately (in 1003 BCE). This is how HPA Nesbanebdjed II was able to dedicate the bracelets found in Psusennes I's burial even though Menkheperre was HPA in the first year of Amonemnisut. This problem which besets all other chronologies is now solved in mine without overlapping the HPA-ships of Menkheperre and Nesbanebdjed II. Menkheperre became HPA when his father Pinudjem I became king in the south in 1052 and this was also year 1 of Amonemnisut in the north.

The HPA in office when Psusennes I died and when Amenemope became king was Nesbanebdjed II. Menkheperre died before Psusennes I did. We now know HPA Nesbanebdjed II died during the reign of Amenemope and his successor was HPA Pinudjem II son of King Psusennes I. This HPA also died during the reign of Amenemope and his successor was HPA Pinudjem III son of Menkheperre. This HPA’s wife Neskhons died and was buried in year 5 and he died and was buried five years later in year 10 of Amenemope’s successor.

Using 25 years per average father-son generations, I have the following dates along with the standard view that Psusennes I is mentioned three times, once by prenomen and twice by nomen. Kings in bold red type are explicitly mentioned in the monument.

Ashachet A. Born ca. 1100; HPP under Amonemnisut (1052-1048); death ca. 1045
Pepi A. Born ca. 1075; HPP in ca. 1045 under Aakheperre Setepena[mon] Psusennes I (1048-1003)
Horsiese. Born ca. 1050; HPP in ca. 1025 under Psusennes I (1048-1003)
Pepi B. Born ca. 1025, prophet under Psusennes I (1048-1003); HPP under Siamun (936-919)
Ashachet B. Born ca. 1000
Ankhefensakhmet A. Born ca. 975; HPP under Shoshenq II/C (905-873); death ca. 903
Šedsunefertum. Born ca. 950; prophet under Siamun (936-919); HPP under Shoshenq II/C (905-873)
Pahemnetcher A. Born ca. 925; prophet under Siamun (936-919)
Iwefaaenp(t)ah. Born ca. 900
Pahemnetcher B. Born ca. 875
Sisakhmet. Born ca. 850
Pahemnetcher C. Born ca. 825
Pasher(en)sakhmet. Born ca. 800
Pahemnetcher D. Born ca. 775
Ankhefensakhmet B. Born ca. 750 during Shoshenq V (770-734)

You say the absence of Shoshenq I in this genealogy is a problem if I make him the successor of Amenemope for 49 years, but every king between Psusennes I and Shoshenq V is omitted. So there really isn’t any problem here. Notice that Šedsunefertem and his son Pahemnetcher A are attested under Siamun as just prophets on Cairo JE 45569.

On the Greek Papyrus Leipzig Inv. 590. This document is dated to the 2nd century CE. This is considerably after the reign of Augustus Caesar and it postdates even Josephus. Since the author of the “Agyptiaka of Manetho” who lived in Augustus’s day gave us the best attempt at reconstructing Egypt’s past in Greek, I highly doubt this much later Greek listing is doing an equal or better job. So I dismiss it. Your suggestion that this document “antedates” Manetho is impossible.

The orthodox order Šobaka-Šobatka holds no genuine problems. Those so-called problems are illusions. The Assyrian inscriptions and Kawa Stelae support the traditional order. Šobatka (Ša-pa-ta-ku) was in all probability the turtanu SIPA in 720 and not yet king when he lost the battle with the Assyrian army at Raphia, and the Kushites abandoned Lower Egypt, but he was king in 713 when Yamani of Ashdod fled to Egypt and still king in 707 when he extradited Yamani to Assyria. If you insert Šobaka between 707 and 690 then Taharqa would have made at least two trips from Nubia to northern Egypt. Yet he clearly says he made just one trip at age 20, as the king’s brother of Šobatka, and that his mother Abar had not seen him again until she sailed north to see him at Memphis after he became king of Egypt in 690.

Happy holidays to you as well.

  • SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Dec 24 06:48
    Dear Tory, I appreciate your reply. "If anyone can explain to me what possessed Manetho to put Σέσογχωσις,... more
    • Re: Sesonchosis — Tory, Sun Dec 25 19:21
      • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Dec 31 12:37
        Hi Tory First of all, happy new year. For you and everyone else on this forum. On Nesipaqashuty. I messed this one badly; my bad here. Thanks for clarifying. In theory, it is not impossible that... more
        • Re: SesonchosisTory, Mon Jan 2 11:14
          Hi Jaime: If he is not Shoshenq III then there are no monuments, no door jambs, no lintels, no walls, no temples, no priestly annals, no donation stelae, no geneaologies, no scarabs, no tomb, and no... more
          • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Jan 7 18:41
            Hi Tory, thank you for the reply. "If he is not Shoshenq III then there are no monuments, no door jambs, no lintels, no walls, no temples, no priestly annals, no donation stelae, no geneaologies, no... more
            • Re: SesonchosisKim Sargerson, Sun Jan 8 12:46
              Hi Jime, Tory In post 16339 on 7/4/2016 Tory wrote "I argue Taharqa became a real king of Kush when his father died, but king in the Kushite definition and more or less "chieftain" from the Egyptian... more
            • Re: SesonchosisRobert P. Killian, Sun Jan 8 09:15
              Jaime, Tory and Kim, Question,---was 732BC, the 13th year of the Assyrian King Tiglath-Pileser III? Question,---was 732BC, the death year of Retzin, King of Damascus? Question,---was 732BC, the death ... more
              • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sun Jan 8 16:10
                Hi Bob, thank you for your questions. Allow me to respond for myself. A) 732 BCE was the 13th year of Tiglath-Pileser III's reign. It is not my belief that any dates lower that 911 BCE (Adad-Nirari... more
                • Re SesonchosisRobert P. Killian, Mon Jan 9 00:39
                  Hi Jaime O Thanks for answering my list of questions. A) 732 BCE, was 13th year of Tiglath-Pileser III's reign. B) Retzin of Damascus died in 732 BCE. Did Pekah die too? I do have 701 BCE, for... more
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