Kim Sargerson
Re: Libyans and Kushites
Fri Feb 3, 2017 11:39

Hi Jaime

"the fact that Osorkon II had a grandson named Takelot (B) might suggest the namesake king was alive to see the birth of the third generation after his."
I agree, in fact have been arguing this for some time now i.e. not "papponymy" but "loyalty-naming". There are no other Takelots. Takelot A (in the 1PPs family), Takelot B, Takelot E/F are all named after him as king, as I do not believe he had a tenure as heir apparent. Takelot E/F becomes Takelot II. Takelots C, D, G are all named after him and born in his reign. After this the fashion moves back to the Old Kingdom style of ankh + RN, so there are a couple of Ankh-Takelots who are named after G (= Takelot III). After that, nothing. Granted, Takelot I must have come to the throne relatively late (if 13 years is correct) in his mid-forties, and must have lived to be about 60 in order to have two separate great-grandsons named after him.

Placing the birth of Takelots B, E/F near the end of his reign (to get a lower age for the king) means that Sheshonq D, father of Takelot B, was born about 5-10 years before Tak. I's reign commenced. If there isn't a king Sheshonq here, i.e. between Osorkon I and Takelot I, then who is he named after?

In your list of individuals and their lifespans, it is only fair to include other members of the families who had a tenure but did not form part of the direct line e.g. other sons of Painedjem I, Nesbanebdjed II son of Menkheperre, and so on. These would probably bring the average down. I do not think that dietary restrictions on the upper class and royalty necessarily leads to a healthier and longer life, in the long term, Having guaranteed nutrition is certainly a bonus in the ancient world and makes it more likely that children will reach adulthood. But there are so many other factors at play, and we can see from the nonroyal mummies of priests and officials which are slowly being examined with modern techniques, that Egyptians during the "Libyan" period were no more likely to reach old age (60+) than their earlier or later counterparts. It is unlikely in the extreme that a generational sequence like this would have more than two consecutive individuals reaching 60+.

"Didn't you suggested some time ago that Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit, wife of Tutankhamun, could have been Aya's daughter? That would be a son-in-law to father-in-law succession"
Yes, indeed, and I said a transition from son in law to father in law is of itself not improbable. But the existence of an already adult heir (Sheshonq Q = II) makes succession by the father in law unnecessary even as a placeholder, and would be a dnagerous decision for the Sheshonqid dynasty to take of the father in law (Psusennes) had sons of his own. The closest I can get to Tory's set-up is the Byzantine succession 920 to 945. Here we have a child emperor Konstantinos VII, born of a concubine and elevated in default of legitimate heirs, who at the age of 14 was effectively usurped (but not deposed) by the admiral Romanos Lekapenos. Although Konstantinos married a daughter of Romanos, the latter remained the senior emperor for a generation 920/944 and appointed his own sons co-emperors as well (but mainly behind Konstantinos in the order of seniority). If you are unfamiliar with the detail, please read up for yourself if you wish. The upshot is that the tendency to supplant one dynasty by another was reversed, and Konstantinos VII was succeeded by his son (Romanos' grandson). The differences between this and Tory's model are that Romanos I was a nobody from nowhere, not a descendant of a previous ruling dynasty, and he did not outlive his son in law, despite reaching his late 70's.

"he only possibility I can think of about Herakles is that this is an encrypted reference to Herakleopolis Magna, in Upper Egypt."
But there are other kings of Herakleopolis (even whole dynasties of them!). I was trying to find something unique that would single out a king Osorkon. The best I could come up with is that "Herakles" in the late accounts, mostly prevalent after the campaigns of Alexander, was believed to have been a great conqueror, following the footsteps of Dionysus all the way to India, and that Alexander was simply recapitulating the journey of his ancestor. Turn to the Demotic story cycle and a certain Pedikhonsu, a relative (son? brother?) of king Pedubast, is said to have had a similar set of exploits, campaigning as far away as India.
Now comes the "reaching" part: some Libyan and Kushite names were Egyptianised into similar sounding names in that language. Thus I suggest that Kawasa, son of Iuwelot, is the same man as Khaenwaset, son of Iuwelot, that Piye was changed to Piankhi, and names like Userkhonsu might represent "Osorkon". A man whose name ended in -Khonsu and who was a relative of a king Pedubast might be equated with a king Osorkon who was a relative of a king Pedubast. He conquered India; Herakles conquered India, so the Greeks are actually remembering the exploits of an Egyptian, much later than their Herakles. This has the benefit of being an unique explanation, but it isn't very good - it would be far better if Pedikhonsu were called Userkhonsu.

"The problem here is really the presence of Osorkon B's mother if the NLTs mentioning Kamama are to be interpreted as his. His mother must have been alive at this time, and I don't think Kamama was if Osorkon B was c82 years old at ascension. Not only would Osorkon B and Kamama be extremely old, his brother, Bekenptah, alive during Year 39, must be presumed similarly aged."
I think this all comes down to interpretation. I do not believe that the mention of Osorkon III's mother on early NLTs indicates for certain that she was alive. Compare the king Takelot "whose mother is Tentsai". No royal title here, nor is there in a separate attestation of prince Takelot G son of Tentsai, as 1PA and 1P of Herishef. So she is living, throughout the sole reign of Osorkon, but not even a king's wife despite being the mother of the heir? Even so, I would agree that if an 82 year old Osorkon B becomes king, then only the years 2, 3, 5 NLTs should be considered his, and the others should be assigned to another king. Bakenptah I do not consider to be a brother of Osorkon B, as he is not titled "king's son". I think he is either a brother in law or a cousin, and even if a brother he might be over 20 years younger.

"James pointed out that kings Osorkon III and Takelot III suffer the influence of an archaizing style present during the 25th Dynasty into the Saite period"
This style actually begins under Sheshonq III, as far as I can tell. It is not only evidenced by the ankh-names, but also by the change in royal titulary to simpler prenomina and subsidiary names. It also would explain the "god, ruler of Thebes" tagline epithet of some northern rulers who never saw Thebes, filched from the 18th dynasty. However, the archaising tendency clearly started much earlier - just look at the names of the 1PPs, Pepy, Merenptah, for example, and the creation of genealogies tracing back to at least a New Kingdom ancestor, before the foreigners came in a messed it all up. I suspect a circular argument here. Yes, lopping off 60 odd years from the conventional chronology compresses the archaising period somewhat, but this tendency was still going strong at the end of the Saite period, 140 years after Taharqa, so it was not a shortlived phenomenon in any case, but appealed to something deepseated in both Egyptians and Egyptianised foreigners.

"I don't find any other possible candidate besides Shoshenq I and Psusennes ... The Greek Psusennes, where -p is mute, renders a pronunciation similar to Susennes, ... -paseba was rendered as -psus in Greek; the rest of the name, -khaenniut, might be a clue behind names such as Susakeim and Psinakhes and, ultimately, the Hebrew Shishak)"
Also plausible, although there is no name similarity, is Siamun, who certainly depicted smiting of Asiatics on the frieze of his temple at Tanis. The similarity of some Psusennes-variants to "Sousakeim" in particular has been discussed before, and certainly a theoretical original "Psousakeimnes" would be very close to a genuine attempt to render Psibkhae(m)niut into Greek. I am less sure that this name can shelter "Shishak".



  • Re: Libyans and KushitesJaime O, Fri Feb 3 07:42
    Dear Kim, thank you for the reply. I fear I did not responded the last time you replied to a post of mine, which happened because posts started to accumulate and time was lacking. My apologies. "... more
    • Re: Libyans and Kushites — Kim Sargerson, Fri Feb 3 11:39
      • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 7 03:09
        Hi Kim, Jaime: Sorry for the delay. When the wife loses her patience with ancient chronology I cannot go near a history book or even a computer keyboard for several days. Here are my Egyptian dates... more
        • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 7 03:11
          Kim wrote: On the Apis of 26 Taharqa: Numerically, you can make this work (although in accepting the EKL reign length of 49, you reject the detail of his immediate predecessors, a queen for 10 years... more
          • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 7 03:12
            Kim wrote: Ok. Does this now mean that you have an “undated” Apis bull between 2 Shabaka and 14 Taharqa, which are separated by 32-33 years? Is the “year 4” docket doing its duty in everyone's theory ... more
            • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Mon Feb 20 14:31
              Hi Tory I have now had a chance to go through your massive and detailed presentation. First, the minor corrections that I have picked up on, that you might want to incorporate in case they lead to... more
              • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 09:21
                Hi Kim, On the members of Dynasty 21: I am certain your Painedjem II is a phantom created by a miswriting of a single bandage. If it is not, then he must be moved earlier in date, as his father is... more
              • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 03:24
                Hi Kim Thank you for your reply and these minor corrections to my Saite chronology. I was in bit of a rush. As I said, my wife uses a stop watch every time I sit down at the computer to do historical ... more
                • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 10:50
                  Ooops Year 20 Apries, II-smw 10 (P. BM 10113, Thebes) (Oct 12, 567), this is the highest known date for Apries. Nebuchadnezzar II stormed Thebes and sacked it (Nov, 567) shortly after previous date.... more
                  • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Wed Feb 22 17:19
                    Hi Tory "these minor corrections to my Saite chronology." The finding of the mistakes is in no way an attempt to invalidate or criticise, quite the reverse. I know from experience the embarassment of ... more
                    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Wed Feb 22 23:15
                      Hi Kim My wife is one of those who would prefer I go to the casino since there is chance I would actually leave with more money than I came. Lapdancers? Same thing. Hardware store? Another word for... more
                    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Kim Sargerson, Wed Feb 22 17:24
                      ...continued "Tashepenbast was the daughter of Hedjkheperre Shoshenq I. Her son the vizier Nesipakashuti A, son of 3PA Djedthutefankh, died under Usermaatre Shoshenq. My Shoshenq II is king at... more
            • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Mon Feb 13 11:39
              Hi Tory Ian Mladjov (once a regular contributor to this forum) has an article in Birmingham Egyptlogy journal, which can be downloaded free here... more
              • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Wed Feb 15 20:48
                Hi Kim I will have to look at Ian's paper, but since it appears to be a criticism of Thijs' work I don't know how much it will shed any new light on what we already know. "It was not a calendar in... more
            • Addendum: a mangled Saite DistanzangabeTory, Tue Feb 7 08:57
              The stela Tawfik discovered and published by Handoussa states that the priest Psamtek was born in Year 1 of Nekau II, III-smw 1, and that he died in Year 27, IV-3kt 28. His lifespan is given as 65... more
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