Tory
Re: Libyans and Kushites
Tue Feb 21, 2017 03:24
112.198.78.163

Hi Kim

Thank you for your reply and these minor corrections to my Saite chronology. I was in bit of a rush. As I said, my wife uses a stop watch every time I sit down at the computer to do historical research and write. That's the deal until my research starts paying bills.

Nekau II (609-594) accession IV-prt 16 (Aug 28, 609)
Nekau II coronation I-smw 15, year 1 (Sep 26, 609) Full Moon
Birth of priest Psamtek, III-smw 1, year 1 (Nov 11, 609)
Year 2, I-smw 15 (Sep 26, 608)
Year 16, I-smw 15 (Sep 24, 594)
Apis death, II-3kt 6, year 16 (Feb 17, 594 593)
Apis birth, II-3kt 7, year 16 (Feb 18, 594 593)
Death of Nekau II, year 16, 594 593

Psamtik II (593-588) accession/coronation 594 593
Apis induction, III-smw 9, year 1 (Nov 16, 594 593)
Death of Psamtik II, I-3kt 23, year 7 (Feb 2, 588 586)

Apries (587-568) accession I-3kt 24 (Feb 3, 586)
Apries coronation II-3kt 10, year 1 (Feb 19, 586) Full Moon
Year 2, II-3kt 10 (Feb 19, 585)
Year 12, II-3kt 10 (Feb 16, 575)
Apis death, IV-prt 12, year 12 (Aug 17, 575)

Nebuchadnezzar II attacked Apries in his own year 37, i.e. 568/567 (BM 33041), Jan 567.
Amasis revolted and supported Nebuchadnezzar II by raising troops from Cyrene (Putuiaman) and far-off areas in the midst of the sea.
Apries retreated to Thebes as Nebuchadnezzar II planted himself firmly in the Delta city of Tahpanhes (Jeremiah 43:9-13).
Nebuchadnezzar II crowned Amasis on I-3kt 15 (Jan 20, 567) Full Moon

Year 1 Amasis, II-3kt 1 (BM 952, Sharuna, 20 km south of el-Hibeh)(Feb 5, 567), earliest Amasis date

Year 20 Apries, II-3kt 10 (Feb 14, 567)

Year 1 Amasis, III-prt (Berlin 14998, west Delta)(Jul, 567)

Year 20 Apries, II-smw 10 (P. BM 10113, Thebes) (Oct 12, 567), this is the highest known date for Apries.

Nebuchadnezzar II stormed Thebes and sacked it (Nov, 567) shortly after previous date.
The region of Pathros between the tower of Elephantine (Syene) and the border of Kush was devastated by the Babylonian army and remained desolate and uninhabited for the next 40 years (Ezek 29:10-11, 14-16).
Nebuchadnezzar II returned to Babylonia.

Year 1 Amasis, II-smw, Apries 1st attempt to recover Egypt (between Oct 13 and Nov 1, 567)
Year 1 Amasis, IV-smw 1 (Lourve C. 298, Pharbaithos)(Dec 2, 567)
Year 2 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 20, 566)
Year 3 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 20, 565)
Year 4 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 19, 564)
*Year 25, Apries, II-3kt 10 (Feb 13, 564) Herodotus 25 years
Year 4, III-3kt 8, Apries 2nd attempt to recover Egypt, death of Apries. Death of Apries (Mar 13, 564)
Year 5 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 19, 563)
Apis birth, year 5, I-3kt 7 (Jan 11, 562)
Year 6 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 19, 562)
Year 7 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 19, 561)
Year 8 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 18, 560)
Year 9 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 18, 559)
Year 10 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 18, 558)
Year 11 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 18, 557)
Year 12 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 17, 556)
Year 12, I-smw 21 (Sep 20, 556) the date P. Louvre 7848 began to be written
Year 12 Amasis, II-smw 13 (Oct 12, 556) LD 16: Petosiris agreed to swear an oath on day of the full moon
Year 12, I-smw smdt (Oct 12, 556) Petosiris swore the oath that evening before the god and in the light of the full moon
Year 13 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 17, 555)
Year 14 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 17, 554)
Year 15 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 17, 553)
Year 16 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 16, 552)
Year 17 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 16, 551)
Year 18 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 16, 550)
Year 19 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 16, 549)
Year 20 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 15, 548)
Year 21 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 15, 547)
Year 22 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 15, 546)
Year 23 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 15, 545)
Apis death, III-prt 6, year 23 (Jul 4, 545)
Apis birth, year 23
Year 24 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 14, 544)
Year 25 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 14, 543)
Death of the priest Psamtek, III-prt 28, year 25 (Aug 25, 543)
He was 65 years, 10 months, and 2 days old when he died (24,027 days)
The end of his 70-day period of embalming was III-smw 8 (Nov 3, 543)
Year 26 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 14, 542)
The mummy of the priest Psamtek was exhumed and taken to the pr-nfr for re-wrapping, IV-3kt 28 (Aug 25, 542)
Year 27 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 14, 541)
Apis death, year 27
Apis birth, year 27
The re-interment of the priest Psamtek in Year 27, I-smw 29 (Sep 25, 541).
Year 28 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 13, 540)
Year 44 Amasis, I-3kt 15 (Jan 9, 524)
Death of Amasis, year 44 (Jan 524)
Psamtik III, six months (524 Jan-Jul 524)
Conquest by Cambyses July, 524

On the Kushites:
The data as presented do not explain the existence of a year 8 of Tanutamun.


I'm not sure it needs to. Tanutamun is only given 4 years in the EKL. Since this is list of kings who ruled Kush, it is possible he did not return to rule Kush in 655/4 but remained in Egypt, giving the rulership of Kush over to a relative. Any years of Tanutamun higher than year 4 are purely "Egyptian" years. Now the argument that Psamtik I took control of Thebes by 654 at the time his daughter Nitocris was adopted is not backed up by any hard evidence. This is just an opinion. A year 8 for Tanutamun is already casting doubt and disproving this opinion because Rudamon "II" (Urdamane) and Tanutamun are two different names for two different kings according to the EKL and the Assyrian inscriptions.

A definite daughter of Alara, Tabiry, was a definite wife of Piye. Yet the paternal and maternal grandmothers of Taharqa were younger sisters of Alara.

Not sure I follow the logic. Alara and Piankhy are roughly the same generation in opinion, and Tabiry was likely Piankhy's much younger niece. Alara's younger sister (name unknown) was the mother of Abar, who I assume was married first to Kashta her full brother. Sōabaka, son of Kashta, and Amonardis I, daughter of Kashta, were half-siblings. Sōabaka was Abar's second marriage (after the death of Kashta) and these are the parents of Taharqa. Abar was only a “king’s sister” when he left her in Nubia. This means sister-wife of the deceased Kashta. In Kawa VI 22 where Alara is called the elder brother of Abar’s mother, she is here denoted as the aunt-wife of the deceased Sōabaka, and the former sister-wife of Kashta. Alara was literally Taharqa’s great uncle as he has stated. Putting the reign of Alara ahead Piankhy is therefore incorrect and the EKL reflects a genuine tradition of the historical succession.

seems to generate a generational mismatch (Alara born by c810 to have a daughter old enough to marry Piye by 771 at latest, but Taharqa's grandmothers born about 786/776 if he himself was born about 736)

Alara, born ca. 810
Tabiry, daughter of Alara, born ca.790
Alara's younger sister, born ca. 805
Abar, daughter of the above lady, born ca. 787
Piankhy marries 18-year old Tabiry, ca. 772
Taharqa, son of Abar, born 736

Looks ok from here. I will address the Libyan concerns in a separate post since this one is already long.

Regards Tory

  • Re: Libyans and KushitesKim Sargerson, Mon Feb 20 14:31
    Hi Tory I have now had a chance to go through your massive and detailed presentation. First, the minor corrections that I have picked up on, that you might want to incorporate in case they lead to... more
    • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 09:21
      Hi Kim, On the members of Dynasty 21: I am certain your Painedjem II is a phantom created by a miswriting of a single bandage. If it is not, then he must be moved earlier in date, as his father is... more
    • Re: Libyans and Kushites — Tory, Tue Feb 21 03:24
      • Re: Libyans and KushitesTory, Tue Feb 21 10:50
        Ooops Year 20 Apries, II-smw 10 (P. BM 10113, Thebes) (Oct 12, 567), this is the highest known date for Apries. Nebuchadnezzar II stormed Thebes and sacked it (Nov, 567) shortly after previous date.... more
        • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Wed Feb 22 17:19
          Hi Tory "these minor corrections to my Saite chronology." The finding of the mistakes is in no way an attempt to invalidate or criticise, quite the reverse. I know from experience the embarassment of ... more
          • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Wed Feb 22 23:15
            Hi Kim My wife is one of those who would prefer I go to the casino since there is chance I would actually leave with more money than I came. Lapdancers? Same thing. Hardware store? Another word for... more
            • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Fri Feb 24 17:46
              Hi Tory Re: Saite chronology. Sorry, it was me missing something. Although you changed the detailed dates you kept the summary statement of reign period (e.g. "Apries (587-568) accession I-3kt 24... more
              • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Sun Feb 26 02:22
                Hi Kim He apparently has quit Egyptology so I have not bothered to contact him, but what Koenraad Donker van Heel said in his book and what he reiterated to Krauss is that the P. Louvre 7848 was... more
                • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Wed Mar 1 15:15
                  Hi Tory Sorry I mentioned the Ramesses article at all now. My thanks to you and Marianne for seeing off Fabian Boudville in style. I do however recommend Ian's article on the subject, if you have not ... more
                  • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Tory, Wed Mar 1 23:21
                    Hi Kim So you and Marianne have had issues with this Fabian Boudville cat on EEF? I get the digest but I don't have time to read every mail inside. Why commence the writing of a document then set it... more
                    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 1Kim Sargerson, Sat Mar 4 10:11
                      Hi Tory "So you and Marianne have had issues with this Fabian Boudville cat on EEF?" I cannot speak for Marianne's experience with the gentleman. My experience is that not only does he not listen to... more
              • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Kim Sargerson, Fri Feb 24 18:05
                continued... "Takeloth E/F only finds a supporter in Pedubast II AFTER the death of Shoshenq III. Where he was during years 22-29 need no more be an exile than where Osorkon B was during years 6-21... more
                • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Tory, Sun Feb 26 04:21
                  continued ... The gaps are not real. Osorkon B mentions an opponent who tried to claim 1PA only once, at the very beginning of his account. He never mentions such an opponent again. Yes but that does ... more
                  • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Kim Sargerson, Wed Mar 1 15:17
                    Hi Tory continued from part 1... "Nor do these genealogies mention Shilkanni, but he is in the generation I place him." Nor do they mention king Ping of Zhou. Your king Takelot II has an abundance of ... more
                    • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Tory, Thu Mar 2 01:45
                      Hi Kim continued from previous The absence of descendants of a king who never ruled or lived in Thebes is no surprise. Or is Tukulti-Mer, king of Asshur, to be identified as Takelot-Mer(yamun)? So... more
          • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Kim Sargerson, Wed Feb 22 17:24
            ...continued "Tashepenbast was the daughter of Hedjkheperre Shoshenq I. Her son the vizier Nesipakashuti A, son of 3PA Djedthutefankh, died under Usermaatre Shoshenq. My Shoshenq II is king at... more
            • Re: Libyans and Kushites part 2Tory, Thu Feb 23 00:05
              Hi Kim if Nimlot C is not an ancestor of Pasenhor B, remind me what he (and his wife) is doing in this list of ancestors... Because Wedjptahankhef’s wife Tentsepeh was the royal daughter of Osorkon... more
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