Joe Baker
Re: Amenhotep II and His Reign
Sat Jan 6, 2018 21:22
124.178.155.62

Hi Marianne

In response to your posts, I, for clarity, again give a chart showing the chronology of Eusebius, Pseudo-Dionysius and his excerpts from Artapanos (I add an extra one - via Eusebius [in brackets] - mentioning the death of Chenephres). I also assume that the struggle between Pharaoh (Prʿwn) and Moses (Mwšʿ) in Pseudo-Dionysius was extracted from Artapanos (possibly so, but not provable).

ACTUAL KINGS      | EUSEBIUS/JEROME                   | PSEUDO-DIONYSIUS WITH EXTRACTS FROM ARTAPANOS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 2017= 0 - Abraham born |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 1942= 75= 0 Abraham covenant | 75
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 1727=290=215 Israel enters Egypt | 290
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuthmosis 3 | 1627=390=315 TOUTHMŌSIS 9 years | 390 ṬWTMWSYS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amenḥotep 3 | 1618=399=324 AMENŌPHIS 31 years | 400 ʾMNWPTYS
| | Several kings. Plmntwys in Hlywplys
| | Knprʾ in Mmps married to Mry
| | Mry adopts Mwšʾ
| | Mwšʾ builds Hrmwpls
| | Mwšʾ commands war in Kwšyʾ for 10 years
| | Mry dies, Knprʾ turns against Mwšʾ
| | Knprʾ enlists Knʿntws to kill Mwšʾ
| | Mwšʾ flees to ʾrbiʾ
| | Mwšʾ marries the daughter of Rgwʾyl
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 1592=425=350 Birth of Moses | 424
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Akhenaten Waenre | 1587=430=355 OROS 38 years | 430 WRWS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nfr-nfrw-Aten | 1549=468=393 Moses to Arabia | 466
= Ankh-ḫprw-Re | 1549=468=393 AKHENKHERĒS 12 years | 468 ʾKNKRYWS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| | [Chenephres dies]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tutankhamun | 1537=480=405 ATHŌRIS 9 years | 480 ʾTWRYWS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ḫpr-ḫprw-Re Ay | 1528=489=414 KHENKHERĒS 16 years | 490 KNKRYS
| | He struggled against Mwšʿ
| | with the aid of Ynns and Ybrys
| | Prʿwn and his host drowned in Red Sea
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 1515=502=427 Sinai epiphany | 501 Mwšʾ returns to Myṣryn,
| | 5 year struggle against Prʾwn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 1512=505=430 Exodus | 506
Ay duplicated | AKHERRĒS 8 years |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 1450=567=482 year 22 Joshua |
| year 34 RAMESSĒS |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In your post of 31 Dec 2017 (post 17794) you said

According to Eusebius, there are 2044 years from the birth of Abraham to the 15th year of Tiberias Caesar [which is 29 CE]. Abraham born in 2015 BCE.

Your calculations are consistently 2 years off. In Eusebius’ system the exodus occurred in 1512 BC not 1510 BC. Eusebius dated backwards from year 15 Tiberius using exclusive counting, not inclusive counting, (thereby gaining one year) and started from 28 AD, not 29 AD (so gaining a second year).

According to Eusebius, there are 505 years between Abraham and Moses. That amounts to 1510 BCE, which falls in the reign of Thutmose I by the High Chronology.

But Eusebius placed the reign of Thutmose 1 (Misphres) over 150 years before 1512 BC. Indeed in 1512 he places the end of the reign of Khenkheres (Ay the successor of Athoris = Tutankhamun). Or are you suggesting that Eusebius, despite his use a bundles of Manetho errors in rulers and reign lengths and whose sources in turn contained a bundles of errors in rulers and reign lengths, somehow by sheer coincidence, happened to come upon the (now discredited) much loved High Chronology of the 1960ʾs?

Eusebius does not believe Moses led an exodus in 1510 BCE

But Eusebius does place Moses as leading the exodus in 1512 BC, at the end of the reign of Khenkheres (Ay) and not at the end of the reign of Misphres (Tuthmosis 1).

Therefore, between the 75th year of Abraham [when he received a promise from the Almighty] and Moses, there are 430 years. It still amounts to 1510 BCE.

Agree. And in Eusebius and Pseudo-Dionysius the exodus occurred in 1512, in the 430th year of the era of the Abraham covenant and in the 505th year of the era of the birth of Abraham.

Pseudo-Dionysius followed the same math as Eusebius. He gave the year 490 as being the year of an Exodus, sixty years after the year 430. That is 1450 BCE.

Here is your problem. There was no Exodus in year 490, neither in Eusebius nor in Pseudo-Dionysius. The year 490 (era of the birth of Abraham) is the accession year of Khenkheres, the Pharoah of the Exodus. It is at this point that Pseudo-Dionysius parts from Eusebius and adds a note (possibly from Artapanos) that says “This was he who warred against Mwšʿ with the help of Ynns and Ybrys the magicians. Moses said about this one: Prʾwn and his army drowned in the Rea Sea”. It is clear (especially given the Artapanos extracts added in bulk, by Pseudo-Dionysius, to the year 400) that this extracted statement is a summary of the relevant events of the reign of Khenkheres up to his drowning (in 505/6) and was not meant to be taken as an account of events that occurred during his accession year (490 in the era of birth of Abraham).

Furthermore you are confusing eras. The events of 490 (era of birth of Abraham) did not take place 60 years after the events of 430 (era of covenant of Abraham). Indeed, the event of 489/490 (era of birth of Abraham = 414 era of the Abraham covenant), that is the accession year of Khenkheres, occurred 16 years BEFORE the exodus event in 430 (era of covenant of Abraham).

In your post of 31 Dec 2017 (post 17792) you said

According to Eusebius, who came before Pseudo-Dionysius, and his math, the Year 490 amounts to 1450 BCE--the same year that Amenhotep II succeeded by the High Chronology.

Again with the assumption that Eusebius had clairvoyant knowledge of the High Chronology. But in Eusebius, Tuthmosis 3 died in 1627, whereas he places 1450 BC (when you say Amenḥotep 2 succeeded) as the 34th year of Ramesses 2.

In your (re) post of 28 Dec 2017 (post 17789) you said

One can see by the year given by Pseudo-Dionysius that he is following the number stated in the Book of Exodus for the sojourn of the Hebrews in Egypt―430 years from the promise to Abraham―which is actually supposed to be the time when Moses fled from Egypt. This is indicated by Pseudo-Dionysius and also Artapanus, another historian who claimed Moses left fearing the wrath of a king called “Cenephres” [Thutmose I]. So Pseudo-Dionysius is following the same reckoning as Eusebius but supplies the year of the return of the lawgiver to confront a new pharaoh.

Pseudo-Dionysius (like Eusebius) does not follow a 430 year sojourn of Israel in Egypt or the end of a sojourn 430 years after the Abraham covenant. (In fact Pseudo-Dionysius does not use the era of the covenant of Abraham, only the era of the birth of Abraham). Nor did Moses flee from Egypt in 430 (era of Abraham covenant) - he was only 5 at that time. Pseudo-Dionysius places Moses’ flight in 466 and his return in 501.

The Egyptian historian, Manetho, has neither Cenephres nor Cencheres in his Dynasty 18.

Yes Manetho does not mention Chenephres because this character only appears in the story of Artapanos. Indeed no Egyptian character in Artapanos can be found in Manetho and visa versa. Manetho’s 18th dynasty is a time of unity under one king whereas Artapanos’ story (at least initially) takes place when Egypt was divided amongst many kings ruling different cities. Pseudo-Dionysius, when combining Eusebius and Artapanos never equated Chenephres with Chencheres but separates them by several decades.

However, according to the math of Pseudo-Dionysius, “Cencheres” [or Achencheres] did not belong after Amunhotep III but before him.

But Pseudo-Dinysius does place Cencheres (490-506) after Amenophis (400-430). Also Pseudo-Dionysius, whose chronology is that of Eusebius, placed the accession of Cenecheres in 1528 (21 years after Moses fled to Sinai), not 1450.

Regards Joe


  • Re: Amenhotep II and His ReignMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 31 10:52
    Here, once again, is the math of Eusebius. According to Eusebius, there are 2044 years from the birth of Abraham to the 15th year of Tiberias Caesar [which is 29 CE]. Abraham born in 2015 BCE.... more
    • Re: Amenhotep II and His Reign — Joe Baker, Sat Jan 6 21:22
      • Re: Amenhotep II and His ReignMarianne Luban, Sun Jan 7 12:50
        Joe wrote: "In your post of 31 Dec 2017 (post 17794) you said According to Eusebius, there are 2044 years from the birth of Abraham to the 15th year of Tiberias Caesar [which is 29 CE]. Abraham born... more
        • Re: Amenhotep II and His ReignJoe Baker, Mon Jan 8 06:51
          Hi Marianne On the 15th year of Tiberius you said The consensus now is 29 AD for the 15th Year of Tiberias--so I reckon with that. Can you explain how you know how Eusebius counted? It does not... more
          • Re: Amenhotep II and His ReignMarianne Luban, Mon Jan 8 08:07
            Joe wrote: "However Eusebius did not use the Julian calendar. He used the Syro-Macedonian calendar of Caesarea to fix the start of the year which began in October and he dated years both by Olympiads ... more
            • Re: Amenhotep II and His ReignMarianne Luban, Mon Jan 8 13:35
              Now this site gives a different take on the "Seleucid reckoning" which, to be honest, I have never known to be viewed like this. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/counting-the-years/ Of... more
            • Re: Amenhotep II and His ReignMarianne Luban, Mon Jan 8 08:35
              I think Joe probably got his ideas regarding Eusebius and what calendar he used from Burgess--but see Sacha Stern.... more
    • Re: Amenhotep II and His ReignMarianne Luban, Mon Jan 1 11:31
      Studying Latin for four years comes in handy once in awhile, so I was able to translate the version of Pseudo-Dionysius from that language to a more or less accurate degree. Here is the relevant... more
      • Re: Amenhotep II and His ReignRobert Killian, Wed Jan 3 04:26
        This post, by Marianne, can be verified mathematically. "Suggestion", for integrating most of this information. Year 000 b.Abram 1948AM, 1813CJ/BC,+131yrs=1944BC. ----------------------+420yrs---... more
      • ErrataMarianne Luban, Tue Jan 2 14:31
        I should make some corrections to my previous post. They are: "[*Obviously, Pseudo-Dionysius got all this from Artapanus [via Euseubius] but knew that the story had to do with that same Amenhotep who ... more
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